tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255808252082956251.post7264407680668295985..comments2024-02-16T01:48:30.016-08:00Comments on mathbionerd: Guest post: Bad letters mathbionerdhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17525536407206138695noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255808252082956251.post-36233077912163373582016-01-15T16:33:19.028-08:002016-01-15T16:33:19.028-08:00Thanks for this post. There are so many issues aro...Thanks for this post. There are so many issues around the letters of recommendation (LOR) in academia that need to be discussed, especially because these letters could make or break career of a graduate student or a postdoc. I think there is a lot of influence on letters from the advisors, as there could be, but there are also many many situations where advisors are not fair and give letters of recommendation that represent only their perspective, which could be highly biased. Confidential LORs are fine in an ideal situation but the law does not prevent an applicant from looking at LORs and as long as the hiring person knows about whether the LOR comes confidentially or not, I think LORs should be seen by the applicant. This is sort of akin to peer-reviewers of journal articles having to disclose their identity. The hypothesis here is that an open LOR or an open review 1) will be more responsible one, 2) will give chance to the applicant to voice his/her concern, especially given the gender-based discrimination that can sometimes happen in LORs and 3) it can give real chance for the applicant to see what are the expectations (too high/too low) and 'feelings' of the prospective employer, which is especially useful in the case that the applicant is hired. Perhaps needless to say, I am a victim of a toxic postdoc advisor and hence lack of his recommendation as well as negative recommendation (out of spite) during my job applications and so I have seen the bad side of the process. But I am also someone who got a really good LOR from my PhD committee, so I know the difference that both positive LORs, negative LORs and the lack of LORs made in my case.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255808252082956251.post-57089729375176554442015-11-27T17:20:36.847-08:002015-11-27T17:20:36.847-08:00Thanks for your comments, Mark! I agree. I'm n...Thanks for your comments, Mark! I agree. I'm new to the letter writing side of the relationship. I'm learning how much more calculated one needs to be when writing these letters. mathbionerdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17525536407206138695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255808252082956251.post-87356096477750802592015-11-25T11:40:42.751-08:002015-11-25T11:40:42.751-08:00Thanks for a thoughtful post on an important issue...Thanks for a thoughtful post on an important issue. I write letters for many, many different reasons, ranging from those for undergraduates in a 200 person class, where I usually can do little more than report a grade, to those for neighboring grad students and postdocs, to those for my own trainees. In the latter cases, I am fortunate to have had a strong group of trainees, and the folks on whose committees I have served are also generally strong, so writing a strong letter has not been difficult. If I feel I cannot write a strong letter, I would begin by suggesting the person consider another letter writer. In most cases, if my opinion suggested the person was a poor fit for the position/fellowship, I could not, in good faith, write a letter. <br /><br />For my own trainees, it is more complex, as the lack of a letter from a thesis or postdoc advisor in itself would be a negative. In cases like this, I would hopefully already have been in discussion with the trainee about their career goals, and provided advice about positions that seemed appropriate given their mix of skills. For other students (including undergraduates who did poorly in my class or lab), I'd simply decline to write if the letter would not be supportive. I certainly would not write a weak letter for such a person for a job, fellowship or postdoctoral position. Crafting an honest letter in the case where someones record has significant weaknesses is a challenge that each of us are still learning to face.<br /><br />One other issue worth noting--when faced with a strong set of applicants, reviewers/search committee members are often looking for a reason to remove someone from consideration, and sometimes "read between the lines" in ways the writer didn't expect. This also can come into play with unconscious bias, which lots of data shows influences letter writing for men versus women..<br /><br />Mark Phttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14462250693712068754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255808252082956251.post-59348191262866056322015-11-04T07:44:24.631-08:002015-11-04T07:44:24.631-08:00I agree, Megan. I had a discussion a couple days a...I agree, Megan. I had a discussion a couple days ago with someone who had a bad letter of rec for jobs. Applied to 50, no bites. One person on one committee gave this person a heads up about the bad letter. The next year, did not ask for that recommender, and had a stunning increase in success rate. <br /><br />But, I agree. Letters are meant to be confidential, so returning information to a person about those letters would be a breach of ethics (and sometimes, as with NSF, referees can specify that they'll only provide information with the agreement that anything in the letter will be kept in the strictest confidence).<br /><br />I also don't want to get caught up in thinking all negative letters are bad letters. Sometimes negative things need to be said. The point of confidential letters is to, in my opinion, provide thoughtful and honest feedback about a candidate. If that candidate has faults that pertain to the application, the letter is where someone should be able to point them out. But, parsing that from a vendetta... that is probably nearly impossible. mathbionerdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17525536407206138695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255808252082956251.post-55346933652395082622015-11-04T07:38:11.881-08:002015-11-04T07:38:11.881-08:00I feel like it is good that this student was given...I feel like it is good that this student was given feedback by the granting agency that the letters said these things...many students don't know they are getting poor letters. When I have seen unsupportive letters I have often wondered how to ethically get that information back to people. If the student doesn't know s/he is getting poor letters (due to poor communication or whatever the case), how will they ever get funding or a job, or fix the problem?meganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04808721450201450515noreply@blogger.com