tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255808252082956251.post5204404656495468447..comments2024-02-16T01:48:30.016-08:00Comments on mathbionerd: A recent bottleneck of Y chromosome diversity coincides with a global change in culturemathbionerdhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17525536407206138695noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255808252082956251.post-8157686116898623232015-03-23T15:07:24.948-07:002015-03-23T15:07:24.948-07:00How doth one email thou? From your Mathbionerd pag...How doth one email thou? From your Mathbionerd page, I cannot even discover your NAME!<br /><br />Please do send a reprint to davidbrin@sbcglobal.netDavid Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255808252082956251.post-59260697411210813612015-03-23T10:14:59.360-07:002015-03-23T10:14:59.360-07:00Thanks for all the discussion, everyone. I hope th...Thanks for all the discussion, everyone. I hope this is one post, where readers will take time to read through the comments. <br /><br />The article is paywalled for six months, but if you email me, I can send you the proof.mathbionerdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17525536407206138695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255808252082956251.post-25192237142209000702015-03-22T19:46:18.049-07:002015-03-22T19:46:18.049-07:00PS I will be speaking near ASU April 16-18.
http:/...PS I will be speaking near ASU April 16-18.<br />http://cofes.com/Events/COFES-2015/Agenda.aspxDavid Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255808252082956251.post-91679261501907484582015-03-22T19:43:31.025-07:002015-03-22T19:43:31.025-07:00Agriculture is physically very arduous, requiring ...Agriculture is physically very arduous, requiring more persistent use of strength (as opposed to agility and endurance) in order to achieve results. Also a relentlessness of labor that would tax any animal or hunter-gatherer.<br /><br />This suggests either (1) a great advantage to those who could do this... or (2) a great advantage to those who could control the males who could do this... or both.<br /><br />There are aspects that go unmentioned. Among mammals, there is a relationship between male-female size differential and the species' average mating ratio across lifespan. Almost-monogamous species show little size difference. Elephant seals and elk are very dimorphic, reflecting very large (though temporary) harem size.<br /><br />(Note alpha bulls wear themselves out and seldom last long. This is not a cushy way of life.)<br /><br />The ratio for humans has long been known to fit this curve at a 1.3 scale, meaning that about one-third of human males would be expected to have an extra wife. (in parallel or serially). This just happens to fit the pattern seen in a majority of human tribes and nations of the past. (Note that this polygamy was sometimes run by the women for THEIR benefit, as in the Cherokee and Iroquoisan peoples.)<br /><br />Hence the question... were there variations in the male-female SIZE ratio dimorphism, during this bottleneck? It would seem to be a natural thing to look for, in correlation with this study.<br /><br />David Brin<br />Author of EARTH and The Transparent Society David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255808252082956251.post-48336608623485185752015-03-19T12:54:09.524-07:002015-03-19T12:54:09.524-07:00PIE cultures and societies were extremely patriarc...PIE cultures and societies were extremely patriarchal, as explained in this video:<br /><br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErXa5PyHj4I<br /><br />In contrast to matriarchal societies of Neolithic farmers, such as Trypillian culture:<br /><br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6IgYxfTYTg<br /><br /><br />Tomenablehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01011066460569954979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255808252082956251.post-14293422796890212292015-03-19T12:44:54.619-07:002015-03-19T12:44:54.619-07:00And this documentary explains, that those could we...And this documentary explains, that those could well be Indo-European newcomers who caused that change in culture, and that all those innovations they brough with them (metal weapons, smelting technology, wheleed vehicles, horses, domesticated animals, less reliance on agriculture and more on dairy / milk; precious trade goods and rare skills) perhaps conferred reproductive advantage to them (as well as helped them to get wealthy - which further conferred even more reproductive advantage to those Indo-European males of R1b and R1a haplogroups):<br /><br />"Indo-Europeans in Northern Europe" documentary:<br /><br />Part 1:<br /><br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmHXBXG7Loo<br /><br />Part 2:<br /><br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNNePv5Hu5YTomenablehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01011066460569954979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255808252082956251.post-34011991272994861882015-03-19T12:39:19.149-07:002015-03-19T12:39:19.149-07:00Really interesting reading, thank you very much!
...Really interesting reading, thank you very much!<br /><br />That bottleneck of Y-DNA lineages seems to coincide quite well in time with the invasion of Europe by Proto-Indo-Europeans (ca. 5000 years ago), who apparently brought with them R1a and R1b haplogroups of Y-DNA. Some recent papers about this:<br /><br />"Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe":<br /><br />http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf<br /><br />www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822%2809%2901694-7?cc=y<br /><br />http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/131001/ncomms3486/full/ncomms3486.html<br /><br />http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/03/13/016477.full.pdf<br /><br />"Peopling of Europe – Identifying the Ghost Population":<br /><br />http://dna-explained.com/2014/10/21/peopling-of-europe-2014-identifying-the-ghost-population/<br /><br />"Michael Hammer – Origins of R1b Haplogroup Diversity in Europe":<br /><br />http://dna-explained.com/2013/11/12/2013-family-tree-dna-conference-day-2/<br /><br />"Mike Hammer goes for post-Neolithic entry of R lineages into Europe":<br /><br />http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1577-Mike-Hammer-goes-for-post-Neolithic-entry-of-R-into-EuropeTomenablehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01011066460569954979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255808252082956251.post-70324407198389718312015-03-19T12:37:48.334-07:002015-03-19T12:37:48.334-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Tomenablehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01011066460569954979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255808252082956251.post-91765546383046481552015-03-18T22:50:15.108-07:002015-03-18T22:50:15.108-07:00Dr. Sayres -- Did you really say this?
“Instead o...Dr. Sayres -- Did you really say this?<br /><br />“Instead of ‘survival of the fittest’ in a biological sense, the accumulation of wealth and power may have increased the reproductive success of a limited number of ‘socially fit’ males and their sons,” said Melissa Wilson Sayres"<br /><br />Or is this an egregious mis-quote by an unprincipled would-be journalist?<br /><br />...because it is completely wrong.<br /><br />Just curious...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17718995056155917240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255808252082956251.post-66966402146730822052015-03-18T13:28:34.794-07:002015-03-18T13:28:34.794-07:00I can't view Figure 2 as it's paywalled. F...I can't view Figure 2 as it's paywalled. Figure S4B breaks down by region but doesn't seem to show the ratio, S5 shows the Nf/Nm ratio but only in aggregate.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255808252082956251.post-1007042694673354242015-03-18T09:52:38.589-07:002015-03-18T09:52:38.589-07:00Very good points.
1. We don't know exactly w...Very good points. <br /><br />1. We don't know exactly what allowed the recovery. Still need more work on this.<br /><br />2. We don't think it was agriculture itself, but accumulation of wealth after agriculture. <br /><br />3. Absolutely, agriculture was staggered and in figure 2 in our manuscript, we actually show that there were different dips in different parts of the world, where the timing of the dips ranges between 4000 to 8000 years ago. <br /><br /><a href="http://genome.cshlp.org/content/early/2015/03/13/gr.186684.114.abstract" rel="nofollow">http://genome.cshlp.org/content/early/2015/03/13/gr.186684.114.abstract</a>mathbionerdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17525536407206138695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255808252082956251.post-8767487805168916422015-03-18T09:46:18.115-07:002015-03-18T09:46:18.115-07:00So what ended the bottleneck 4000 years ago?
The...So what ended the bottleneck 4000 years ago? <br /><br />The idea that agriculture was responsible seems far too pat. Agriculture began 2000 years earlier than the bottleneck and continues to the present day. <br /><br />The rise of agrarian civilization was staggered, with separate developments in the fertile crescent, China, and the Americas. So why aren't there three staggered bottlenecks?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255808252082956251.post-75704412106949069712015-03-18T05:20:23.389-07:002015-03-18T05:20:23.389-07:00I'm actually about to talk to more anthropolog...I'm actually about to talk to more anthropologists soon, to ask more about this very topic. Thanks for sharing your ideas! I'm really curious to learn what other disciplines have to say about our findings. mathbionerdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17525536407206138695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5255808252082956251.post-30661637871149773432015-03-18T04:12:35.717-07:002015-03-18T04:12:35.717-07:00It's interesting that your leading hypothesis ...It's interesting that your leading hypothesis for the inability of 16/17 of the males to reproduce was poverty. Is it not more likely that they were organized into armies to protect the newly amassed stores of grain and animals that agriculture brought? Thus engaged, they were likely to be killed at an early age, and also to be far afield and out of contact with their wives if they even had one. Those men fathering all the children might not have been the strongest or the wealthiest, but just the ones who could produce some excuse to stay behind with the women and out of the battles. So, survival of the weaseliest. :-)Kirk Maxeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11864529687578909475noreply@blogger.com